Sunday, December 6, 2009

B"H

Why was Esau evil from the womb? In Judaism humans are born with two souls. One being the animal soul and the other being a Holy soul. The animal soul being one that is worldly and unrighteous. The holy soul being one that is pure and holy unto HaShem. When the twins were born is was like the two souls were born into different bodies. Esau represents our animal soul. Jacob represents our Holy soul. Each one of us is born this way. An animal soul and a Holy soul. Why have two? What is the point of unrighteous?

The actual righteousness or wickedness of a person is not predetermined by G-d. In the words of Maimonides, free choice is "a fundamental principle and a pillar of the Torah and its commandments," without which "What place would the entire Torah have? And by what measure of justice would G-d punish the wicked and reward the righteous?"

Evil is created in our animal soul so that our Holy soul may overcome it. Without unrighteousness we would not need Torah. We are presented evil daily. We can either fall into it or overcome it. Evil is here to show us our Holy soul. In the sense that while certain souls enjoy a life wholly devoted to developing what is good and holy in G-d's world, other souls must struggle against negative traits and ominous perversions implanted within them in order to elicit that special delight that can come only from the conquest of evil.

Shalom

Lee

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

As much as I have enjoyed your blog, with this post you really crossed from Messianic Judaism, into Talmudic Judaism. This teaching is not just un-biblical but contradictory to what the Bible teaches. I am not trying to attack you but this is superstition not Torah.

Anonymous said...

Shalom anonymous,

I appreciate your opinion. The basic idea that I had here was the idea of free will. It really does not have much to do with the talmud as much as you may think. It's a metaphor about the choice we make as humans. We have the ability to choose between good and evil. The animal soul is an example of our sinful nature which we all have. The other soul is our ability to do good. Sin is always crouching at our door. Just as it states in Genesis 4. Cain had the choice with in him to make. He chose the way of evil.
Gen 4:6-7
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

also in Gen 2:16

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

once again the choice.

Now let me ask you. Is the soul unbiblical? Isn't the soul what Elohim breathed into us?

Gen 1:27
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

He created us from dirt and breathed life into us. Which is our soul. Would we live without a soul? As we know the Word of Elohim is breathed by him for us to follow. When Paul in says in Timothy 3:8.

8. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.

Paul makes mention of these two, who's names are not mention in Genesis or any where else in the Torah. So where did he get the names from? The oral mishna. So does this make Paul unbiblical or superstitious? I think not.

In closing I really do value your opinion. As believers in Messiah Y'shua we are to question one another to make sure that we are not be led on the path of destruction.

Todah rabbah.

Lee

Anonymous said...

Interesting. Not to mention that Kain was like an animal when he bashed his brothers head in.

Anonymous said...

That's the point that I was trying to make. When sin effects us we become like animals. Not physically but spiritually. Like we have a roar like a lion but we are not a lion. Cain killing his brother is a good example on how his soul was consumed with rage and he did whatever it took to acomplish what his soul desired. We should use Cain as an example how not to let sin overtake us. Once again HaShem tells us that sin is at our door but we have the ability to overcome it. I really never intended this quick writing to be compared to Torah. There is a lesson here. It's good for other beleivers to keep one another in check. This is what is commanded of us.

Todah rabbah

Lee

Anonymous said...

Again I am not trying to attack you and value friendly dialogue, but if you are saying that this is merely a metaphor I am prepared to grant that, but it sounds more like you are claiming this is a teaching of Judaism and thus I find some problems.

Issue 1: Two souls animal and spiritual one does evil one does good and we regulate them forming our morals and constitution. Again this is not taught in scripture. I very much do believe in the soul but the idea that is has two separate parts one prone to holiness and one prone to sin is not a biblical teaching. There is nothing holy about a fallen creature before regeneration by the Holy Spirit. (Rom 3:9-18) So I might be willing to grant that the soul is totally animalistic (sinful) thus the need for Christ.

Issue 2: I know you are getting at the idea of free will here but with Jacob and Esau you are saying they were victims of these two souls getting placed in them by accident. So Esau was not created bad, but he had no choice to do otherwise. Really you are saying the same thing that he didn’t have any freewill, but compounding the problem by introducing the idea of an accident on God’s part in creating. Why not rather go with what the Bible says that God did create them thus, no accident and chose beforehand who he would bless and who he would curse. (Rom 9:10-18) I’d rather have a God in control that I don’t necessarily understand completely, than an incompetent one.

Issue 3: I take issue with free-will with the idea that we simply must either choose evil or good, the bible is implicitly clear we will never choose God apart from the spirit. (Eph 2:1-6)(Gal 1:15,16) We will never do good because we are completely covered and slaves to sin, it is not merely one equal compelling choice or another. This idea of two competing soul’s negates Christ’s sacrifice if we can merely choose one or the other by our own volition.

This basically was my problem with your blog and again if this is just a metaphor I am prepared to grant that, but even in a metaphorical state it really doesn’t reflect the idea of fallen man that needs a savior.

As to your response then, as I stated previously I do believe we have a soul, it is just not free to do whatever it wants nor is it bi-polar in its decision making, it is a slave to sin and must be freed by God, not by my simply choosing to do so. Our choices then reveal our character not determine it.

As to the issue of Paul using names not mentioned in the Tanak. I would not say this is superstition or untrue, my point wasn’t that anything outside of Torah is not true but anything outside of scripture as a whole Old Testament and New Testament must not be considered inspired truth from God. The fact that your example comes from the New Testament means yes it is true and trustworthy so I have no problem with Paul giving us new information. I do take issue with new information from an outside source, Talmudic, Rabbinic, even Christian if it is not verifiable by scripture.

Blessings.

Anonymous said...

Again I am not trying to attack you and value friendly dialogue, but if you are saying that this is merely a metaphor I am prepared to grant that, but it sounds more like you are claiming this is a teaching of Judaism and thus I find some problems.

Issue 1: Two souls animal and spiritual one does evil one does good and we regulate them forming our morals and constitution. Again this is not taught in scripture. I very much do believe in the soul but the idea that is has two separate parts one prone to holiness and one prone to sin is not a biblical teaching. There is nothing holy about a fallen creature before regeneration by the Holy Spirit. (Rom 3:9-18) So I might be willing to grant that the soul is totally animalistic (sinful) thus the need for Christ.

Issue 2: I know you are getting at the idea of free will here but with Jacob and Esau you are saying they were victims of these two souls getting placed in them by accident. So Esau was not created bad, but he had no choice to do otherwise. Really you are saying the same thing that he didn’t have any freewill, but compounding the problem by introducing the idea of an accident on God’s part in creating. Why not rather go with what the Bible says that God did create them thus, no accident and chose beforehand who he would bless and who he would curse. (Rom 9:10-18) I’d rather have a God in control that I don’t necessarily understand completely, than an incompetent one.

two part...

Anonymous said...

sorry a double post you can delete that second part.

Anonymous said...

Shalom Anonymous,

I do not feel attacked at all. As a matter of fact I rather enjoy talking with you. I will have to be brief because of Shabbat preparations. So we will continue on Monday. Shabbat shalom to you.

your name wouldn't be Jeff would it? just curious.

Todah Rabbah

Lee

Anonymous said...

Shalom Anonymous,

I pray that your weekend was well. again I value your opinion and thank you for talking with me. Based on how you write I am going to assume that your are Christian in your thinking. So I will change the way I speak just a Paul did in Corinthians. You may also have an anti rabinical/sage and talmud stance which may influence you more than you think. This is fine with me. I attend a community of believers with many different ideas on this, but the weightier matters are our main concern. In other words we can put aside petty disagreements and still come together as believers in Jesus. This being said I will continue with an easier understanding using flesh instead of animal soul and the path of rightousness instead of the holy soul.

Lets begin in Hebrews 2.

17 For this reason He had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Jesus was made like us for a brief time though He was perfect and we are not. He is able to help us who are being tempted. If we are incapable of doing good and walking a path of righteousness then why would Jesus need to help us who are tempted.

Once again here in Genesis 3:6

6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

We must master sin. It is clear that sin is always at our door. With the help of Jesus we have that ability to do so. As it is stated in Hebrews He became like us to help us. The statment that you made here in issue #3.

"We will never do good because we are completely covered and slaves to sin, it is not merely one equal compelling choice or another."

If we are slave to sin then G-d lied to us when he said we could master it in Genesis 3:6. Paul said different here.

Romans 6:18

18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

If I am a sinner then whats the point of doing good since I will alway sin. It's like a man who believes in Jesus yet he gets in his car everday and curses at other drivers because he is impatient. He is in his flesh. He knows and reconizes this, but says to himself. "Well I am a sinner and this is just how I am." How about making copies of copyrighted dvds and cds. It is clearly wrong so why still do it, because I am a sinner so what's the point in striving to do good? No! We must change our sinfull behavior. Yes we are covered by grace but that does not give us the right to sin. We must choose to do good and master sin.

The metaphor of Esau and Jacob is a simple one. Esau would be the path of the world. A good example of what path not to choose. The fleshly side. He did have free will and tried to please his father by marrying a women from his kind. He also did good to Jacob when Jacob returned. Yet he still was a man of the world. Jacob was a man of G-d. We know he was not perfect but he still chose the right path.

The Idea of lawless grace negates the death of Jesus. G-d is not a liar. He does not do things by accident. When He said things like this is a "everlasting covenant" or "forever" he meant it.

So because we are sinners does it give us the right to sin, and anything that we attempt to do good is not possible because we cant do good?

We do have the choice and should strive to do good in the name of Jesus.

Great thanks

Lee

Anonymous said...

Shalom Anonymous,

I pray that your weekend was well. again I value your opinion and thank you for talking with me. Based on how you write I am going to assume that your are Christian in your thinking. So I will change the way I speak just a Paul did in Corinthians. You may also have an anti rabinical/sage and talmud stance which may influence you more than you think. This is fine with me. I attend a community of believers with many different ideas on this, but the weightier matters are our main concern. In other words we can put aside petty disagreements and still come together as believers in Jesus. This being said I will continue with an easier understanding using flesh instead of animal soul and the path of rightousness instead of the holy soul.

Lets begin in Hebrews 2.

17 For this reason He had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Jesus was made like us for a brief time though He was perfect and we are not. He is able to help us who are being tempted. If we are incapable of doing good and walking a path of righteousness then why would Jesus need to help us who are tempted.

Once again here in Genesis 3:6

6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

We must master sin. It is clear that sin is always at our door. With the help of Jesus we have that ability to do so. As it is stated in Hebrews He became like us to help us. The statment that you made here in issue #3.

"We will never do good because we are completely covered and slaves to sin, it is not merely one equal compelling choice or another."

If we are slave to sin then G-d lied to us when he said we could master it in Genesis 3:6. Paul said different here.

Romans 6:18

18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

If I am a sinner then whats the point of doing good since I will alway sin. It's like a man who believes in Jesus yet he gets in his car everday and curses at other drivers because he is impatient. He is in his flesh. He knows and reconizes this, but says to himself. "Well I am a sinner and this is just how I am." How about making copies of copyrighted dvds and cds. It is clearly wrong so why still do it, because I am a sinner so what's the point in striving to do good? No! We must change our sinfull behavior. Yes we are covered by grace but that does not give us the right to sin. We must choose to do good and master sin.

The metaphor of Esau and Jacob is a simple one. Esau would be the path of the world. A good example of what path not to choose. The fleshly side. He did have free will and tried to please his father by marrying a women from his kind. He also did good to Jacob when Jacob returned. Yet he still was a man of the world. Jacob was a man of G-d. We know he was not perfect but he still chose the right path.

The Idea of lawless grace negates the death of Jesus. G-d is not a liar. He does not do things by accident. When He said things like this is a "everlasting covenant" or "forever" he meant it.

So because we are sinners does it give us the right to sin, and anything that we attempt to do good is not possible because we cant do good?

We do have the choice and should strive to do good in the name of Jesus.

Great thanks

Lee

Anonymous said...

Shalom Anonymous,

I pray that your weekend was well. again I value your opinion and thank you for talking with me. Based on how you write I am going to assume that your are Christian in your thinking. So I will change the way I speak just a Paul did in Corinthians. You may also have an anti rabinical/sage and talmud stance which may influence you more than you think. This is fine with me. I attend a community of believers with many different ideas on this, but the weightier matters are our main concern. In other words we can put aside petty disagreements and still come together as believers in Jesus. This being said I will continue with an easier understanding using flesh instead of animal soul and the path of rightousness instead of the holy soul.

Lets begin in Hebrews 2.

17 For this reason He had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Jesus was made like us for a brief time though He was perfect and we are not. He is able to help us who are being tempted. If we are incapable of doing good and walking a path of righteousness then why would Jesus need to help us who are tempted.

Once again here in Genesis 3:6

6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

We must master sin. It is clear that sin is always at our door. With the help of Jesus we have that ability to do so. As it is stated in Hebrews He became like us to help us. The statment that you made here in issue #3.

"We will never do good because we are completely covered and slaves to sin, it is not merely one equal compelling choice or another."

If we are slave to sin then G-d lied to us when he said we could master it in Genesis 3:6. Paul said different here.

Romans 6:18

18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

If I am a sinner then whats the point of doing good since I will alway sin. It's like a man who believes in Jesus yet he gets in his car everday and curses at other drivers because he is impatient. He is in his flesh. He knows and reconizes this, but says to himself. "Well I am a sinner and this is just how I am." How about making copies of copyrighted dvds and cds. It is clearly wrong so why still do it, because I am a sinner so what's the point in striving to do good? No! We must change our sinfull behavior. Yes we are covered by grace but that does not give us the right to sin. We must choose to do good and master sin.

The metaphor of Esau and Jacob is a simple one. Esau would be the path of the world. A good example of what path not to choose. The fleshly side. He did have free will and tried to please his father by marrying a women from his kind. He also did good to Jacob when Jacob returned. Yet he still was a man of the world. Jacob was a man of G-d. We know he was not perfect but he still chose the right path.

The Idea of lawless grace negates the death of Jesus. G-d is not a liar. He does not do things by accident. When He said things like this is a "everlasting covenant" or "forever" he meant it.

So because we are sinners does it give us the right to sin, and anything that we attempt to do good is not possible because we cant do good?

We do have the choice and should strive to do good in the name of Jesus.

Great thanks

Lee

Anonymous said...

oops I triple posted. It's funny because I forgot my password and can't access the blog.

Lee

Anonymous said...

Hello I know it has been a great while since I responded but I have been really busy.
First off I do not have an anti-rabbinic or sage or Talmudic bent, what I do have is a reverence for what is clearly scripture and not for what is merely the commentary of man.
That aside, I think the problem here is that in your initial post it was unclear whether you were talking about people who have committed their lives and begun a relationship with Christ and those who have not.
I believed you were talking about a person who has not yet come to know Christ, and that was my issue with your post. But through our dialogue I have come to understand the position you were coming from as it was unclear at the beginning.
I believe now that you were always communicating the position and struggle of a Christian; which I would agree is a decision and we must master the evil and make choices for good.